Curse

Jensy · Nov 18, 2009, 03:57 AM // 03:57

Okay, let me start by saying that I have read up a bit on this subject, but as things keep changing, I'm trying to stay current.

As part of a new GvG team, I'd like some advice on what the current opinion is. We've mostly been running +health, except on our paragons who are wearing Centurions. I'm starting to see where this is backfiring for us. The rest of our team is War, Ele, Ranger, Monks + Rit Flagger.

Disciples seems the best choice for me as a prot monk, correct?

Anyway, we are truly trying to learn, so I welcome any helpful advice. And when I say n00bs, I mean it; we've maybe played 30 matches together the last two months.

I Angra I · Nov 18, 2009, 04:12 AM // 04:12

+armor is always going to be better than +health, because the +armor you can get on yourself reduces damage by so much that it's invaluable.

here's a QQ link going more in depth about it if you haven't already seen it: http://www.teamquitter.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14392

because I'm lazy ;p

PS HI JEN

FoxBat · Nov 18, 2009, 05:39 AM // 05:39

Health mattered mostly because of Victory or Death, but if you're new you weren't around then.

xenosagafreak · Nov 18, 2009, 06:37 AM // 06:37

Disciples on monks, period, is the best choice.

House Silvermoon · Nov 18, 2009, 09:22 AM // 09:22

always go +armor and always go all or nothing. dont half and half armor, mainly because of consistancy and cause do u actually get hit on the hands, head, and legs.

Nechrond · Nov 18, 2009, 09:36 AM // 09:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by House Silvermoon

always go +armor and always go all or nothing. dont half and half armor, mainly because of consistancy and cause do u actually get hit on the hands, head, and legs.

On paper, soft targets would be better off choosing either +health or +armor, and hard targets would be better off mixing them up. Don't know if this has ever been tested though.

dr love · Nov 18, 2009, 10:12 AM // 10:12

it depends on the opponents/build you're facing and personal preference.

+hp is better if you're against a spike team with cracked armor (e.g. 2 paras and 2 rangers, or omega spike).

+armor is better for just about everything else.

Sankt Hallvard · Nov 18, 2009, 11:10 AM // 11:10

Are you guys saying this because you've read it somewhere or been told so lately? Of course +armor is sweet, the thing is you have to compare it to +hp in this meta.

Judging by observer mode there really are no viable 8v8 pressure builds, most matches are won by spikes(where +hp might save the day, especially with all the cracked armor) or are decided by lord damage.

If you run full +armor on a caster and get spiked in your 40/40 set you have a fairly low health and wouldn't be very hard to kill.

lutz · Nov 18, 2009, 11:40 AM // 11:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

Are you guys saying this because you've read it somewhere or been told so lately? Of course +armor is sweet, the thing is you have to compare it to +hp in this meta.

Judging by observer mode there really are no viable 8v8 pressure builds, most matches are won by spikes(where +hp might save the day, especially with all the cracked armor) or are decided by lord damage.

If you run full +armor on a caster and get spiked in your 40/40 set you have a fairly low health and wouldn't be very hard to kill.

Armor makes you take less damage.

The only argument I could see being viable is that there is too much cracked armor in the meta, which isn't entirely true.

If you have 100-120 armor already, diminishing returns from your armor do really make health more valuable. However, if you have 60-100 armor, +armor is much more valuable than +health. Considering an additional +10 armor, you'd be taking about 10-15% less damage. Considering most spikes nowadays are approximately 60% armor-reducible damage (and that's being generous to armor-ignoring damage), 60% of your health is 360 damage that can be reduced by armor. 36-54 damage is reduced by armor, plus any autoattacks you may recieve, whereas +health on your armor can give you at most +40 health. Healing also becomes more powerful with +armor.

tl;dr: armor is better.

Nechrond · Nov 18, 2009, 11:57 AM // 11:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

Healing also becomes more powerful with +armor.

Depending on the type of healing. Having high maximum health cuts down on overhealing. If you expect to receive frequent small heals, +armor is going to be WAY better than +health. If you get infrequent big heals +health is better.

It might be worthwhile to take this into account too when choosing between +armor and +health.

Sankt Hallvard · Nov 18, 2009, 12:04 PM // 12:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

The only argument I could see being viable is that there is too much cracked armor in the meta, which isn't entirely true.

If the concensus is +armor and everyone is running that, bringing cracked armor would be all the more powerful.

lutz · Nov 18, 2009, 12:47 PM // 12:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

If the concensus is +armor and everyone is running that, bringing cracked armor would be all the more powerful.

The main problem is that cracked armor can (most of the time) only be applied to a single target at a time, making it only viable for spiking or quick pressure bursts on single targets. You can't maintain it on several people at once, and armor still reduces a lot of the autoattack damage that happens outside of cracked armor.

zwei2stein · Nov 18, 2009, 01:41 PM // 13:41

How does sup absorption rune fare nowadays?

IIRC, ever since it was made physical only, it was never worth looking at, is that still true?

I mostly see Vitae suggested instead, but on paper, -3 on physicals attacks seems like it would add up quite fast, making vitae look a bit weak, even if still more reliable.

FoxBat · Nov 18, 2009, 04:06 PM // 16:06

In theory everyone elemental swaps vs warriors anyway, but in theory they're all wearing sentinels now, so...

*lemming* · Nov 18, 2009, 07:32 PM // 19:32

It's not worth the condi reduction rune you'd be giving up for it.

Hugh Manatee · Nov 18, 2009, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Absorption used to help a lot in the lord pit, the knights and archers stuff would just bounce off you, I could march right in and wreck stuff, or chase whatever they sent back to heal the npcs while a buddy took out their stuff. I think I once replaced the absorption with the anti-cripple and anti bleeding rune and it actually was pretty sweet(we were on the burning hall at the time)... I think it was S-vigor, minor weapon, minor strength, clarity and restoration. Swapped into the anti crip shield in the lava and when approaching archers and the conditions were negligible, and I was able to get lots of nice bulls in the lava.

As for +armor vs +hp, I can't keep up, you take an umbrella and it won't rain kind of thing. Take armor and you'll fight degening life stealers, take HP and you're up against like a million physicals...

Sankt Hallvard · Nov 18, 2009, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh Manatee

As for +armor vs +hp, I can't keep up, you take an umbrella and it won't rain kind of thing. Take armor and you'll fight degening life stealers, take HP and you're up against like a million physicals...

In that case I'd take +health all the time, unconditionally forever and ever.

Jensy · Nov 18, 2009, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Angra I

+armor is always going to be better than +health, because the +armor you can get on yourself reduces damage by so much that it's invaluable.

here's a QQ link going more in depth about it if you haven't already seen it: http://www.teamquitter.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14392

because I'm lazy ;p

PS HI JEN

Hee, thanks. You can be lazy for linking it; I was too lazy to go find it >_>

Thanks, everyone for the feedback so far.

We're going to play with it a bit and see what works for us. Being rated/ranked Bad/Terrible, we're still facing a lot off teams using 98302438423 hex stacks and such, which is my only worry when going +armor. Not to say we won't still face this when we're better, but... that's the point, we'll be better and better equipped to know how to stay on top of it. I'm rambling... Anyway. I guess it's a good idea to break bad habits early and move on? At least until the meta changes again.

PS HI ANGRA

Krill · Nov 18, 2009, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Sitting in a full tactics shield and defense martial weapon reduces damage by ~30% (base physical and elemental). Add in conditional AL buffs from an inscription, disciple's and the gayness known as stand your ground and you can get up to ~70% damage reduction. In practical terms warriors do almost no pressure damage against that sort of AL.

Greedy Gus · Nov 19, 2009, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Summation: +AL is always relatively better than +HP, but you have to manage your absolute level of HP to be comfortable against spikes and armor-ignoring/reducing damage based on the meta (so at different points in time, it has been more or less important to get up near 650, otherwise ranging down to 520-550 with maxed out AL).